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PLO8 opening raises vs NLH opening raises  


RoccoM
Posts: 5
(@roccom)
Active Member
Joined: 5 months ago

I've been playing a lot of PLO8 lately. I've been both playing cash and a specific kind of tournament on Americas card room called "On Demands". They are multi-table sitngo's, with a half hour of late registration. Blinds are 5 mins long. You start with a super stack (30K). Although numbers vary depending on the day, winning usually pays out around 10-12 buy-ins and is typically over in less than 2 hours. Ive had great success with them, but my sample size is only around 700 of these tournaments, so its still on the smaller end. 

What I've specifically noticed in the On Demands, is that full pot sized bets and raises are better in the earlier rounds, and as the blinds to stacks shorten, smaller opening bet sizes get the same "bang for your buck" so to speak. But could I be losing value from the player that is going to call regardless? Or am I protecting my own stack from such close equties?

Im curious to find out if keeping with pot sized bets throughout the tournament, or while playing cash is better off or if your better varying your bet size depending on the strength of your hand.

I do understand that varying your bet sized based on strength is giving away information about your starting hand. However, I feel (but am not sure) that the equities are so close in many opening hands, that telegraphing a "strong" hand is not particularly an issue. This also may differ depending on the stakes and ability of the players? 

What are the thoughts on this?

Thanks for any comments. 

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Mike Caro
Admin
(@mike-caro)
Joined: 11 years ago

Active Member
Posts: 10

@roccom. Hi, Rocco -- My general advice is to make 70 percent of the pot your standard target raise. This can be adjusted for individual players and situations -- and sometimes for deception.

Most raises should also be about 70 percent of the pot, AFTER the amount of a call is included. That means, you would bet 70 into a 100 pot, but if an opponent bet the size of the pot, you would put in a total of 310 to raise. That's 100 in the original pot, plus the 100 bet, plus the 100 amount of call = 300. Then times 0.7, making an appropriate raise 210. Add the 100 call portion and you need to put in 310 total.

Since I'm not familiar with "On Demands," I can't say for certain whether the 70 percent target applies. But I've never encountered a no-limit or pot-limit poker game where it didn't. -- Mike Caro

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RoccoM
(@roccom)
Joined: 5 months ago

Active Member
Posts: 5

@mike-caro Thanks Mike! Theres a tab on ACR set to 3/4's pot, which is probably the most clicked tab for an auto-size betting tab for me. If it was a real tab, Im sure that button would have significant wear on it, haha! I feel better hearing that my typical open or raise is within close line to what youve found most effective. 

Curiously, do you find deception to play an important role in hi/lo games or do they tend to play much more for equities? There are times when I can steal a pot in hi/lo, or push a final bet to try and scoop instead of split. But I feel like opening wise, there is rarely any deception except for maybe trying to steal blinds/antes late in tournaments. 

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Mike Caro
Admin
(@mike-caro)
Joined: 11 years ago

Active Member
Posts: 10

@roccom. The value of deception is less in high-low games. That's mainly because players have a weaker understanding of where they stand. Many don't even know what a strong hand is in certain situations. This also makes tells much less valuable.

Deception is slightly more valuable in seven-stud high-low than in Omaha high-low. That's because, in seven-stud, you can see up to four of your opponents cards, making it easier to confuse and deceive.

In Omaha high-low (eight-or-better or otherwise), all seen cards are communal and many opponents tend to focus more on their own hands than to think about what you may hold. They play Omaha high-low like bingo. And bingo isn't a good environment for deception.

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RoccoM
(@roccom)
Joined: 5 months ago

Active Member
Posts: 5

@mike-caro "And bingo isn't a good environment for deception".... have you seen Foxwoods bingo? Im scared to death to walk in there!! ;-)

Thanks for the reinforcement of what I have experienced so far. Im sometimes really surprised what I see in play in PLO8, like the concept of playing for a scoop and that middle cards are terrible is a huge secret that no one knows about. 

I guess bingo is good for business though, because its become my most profitable and preferred game. Stud8 is my favorite but my most losing game so far. I have lots of work to still do on it. 

An interesting trend that I thought I have seen, and why stud8 is probably my worst game, is that it seems as NLH popularity arcs out, PLO games are starting to become popular. I think people are then starting to migrate to PLO8, thinking its a similar game. The game has become much more popular recently, and have allowed some very easy spots for anyone with a slightly better than intermediate ability to do very well. I think Stud games are still considered only played by "old timers", so the ones that are actually playing Stud8 are still very good stud players. I cant see ages online, however whenever Ive sat at Stud tables (any variation) at Foxwoods or Mohegan, Ive been the youngest by far a HUGE majority of the time. (I was born in 1982). 

Just my two cents. Thanks for the interaction. 

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