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Zenpoker99 1:06 pm August 26, 2011
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I got into a hand that I'd like an opinion. On. I was playing 2-5 NLH and picked up KJ suited in middle position so I can raised to 35 since it was a VERY loose table & I got 3 callers all others folded. It did leave me out of position. Flop was k-j-9 rainbow. I'm 1st so I lead out with 35 and got 1 to fold. So pot is 3x3=105 +70 post flop. 175. Turn brings K-J-9-Q. Worst freakin. Ard I can see for my hand. I check and villain checks back. Rivers a blank and I check (weak play, I know) &I villain puts me all in for 180. I folded. Was that right. Or did I talk myself out a nice pot by fearing a straight?!?
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Mike Surel 5:15 pm August 26, 2011
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I would say the weak play was only betting 35 on the flop. That board is already extremely dangerous and if you had 3 callers on the flop, you had 4*35 (140) + 3*35(105) = 245 in the middle. 35 into 245 is giving 7:1 odds on the pot. The pot odds alone make almost any reasonable hand a call and the implied odds make it a no brainer. And that is assuming you weren't already beat on the flop.
As for checking the river being weak, why is that weak? Maybe weak means smart? If you bet the river you only get called if you are beat and if you get re-raised, what do you do other than throw up? Maybe crap your pants? There is no good outcome betting that river with your hand. You certainly can't win any more money unless some yahoo really thinks A K is good there. Possible, but not likely.
If the game was as loose as you say, you had to have had other chances to get your money in good. With that turn you lose to any set, A T, K Q, J T, K T, Q T, 9 T, 8 T, 7 T, T T or even somebody wanting to be Doyle Brunson and playing T 2. Any and all of those hands are likely. That was just a gross, gross turn card. You have to win half the time or better (closer to 2/3, I think) to make that call mathematically correct. To make that call in a live game you have to have the mother of all reads on your opponent.
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Zenpoker99 1:12 am August 27, 2011
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Sorry about the mistake. It was 2 callers(guy on my left & 1 across from me) So it was 3*35=105. I bet 35 post flop & got 1 to fold. Everything else was accurate. I spoke to a friend of mine and he gave me the SAME criticism. My post flop bet was WAY too small to end it right there. He advised a 2/3 or pot size bet. Hey, just to be clear.. l really appreciate your candor. Thats how you learn.
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Mike Surel 12:30 pm August 29, 2011
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I've been on the wrong end of those hands too many times. I'm sure we all have. In a loose game, if somebody is willing to shove on the end with that board and not have the hand, the chances are very good you will get his money later when you do have a lock and he decides to bluff again. That was just a sick, sick, sick turn.
The only reason for my candor is the comment about your check on the river being weak. Maybe in a tournament that is true, and even then I would check unless I was on an incredibly short stack or had my opponent covered by a lot, and even then I would have jammed it on the flop. With 2 pair if you are beat you are still drawing to outs to win and if you are behind, well, chances are you are going to ship your chips anyway. Might as well just get it over with :-)
Checking there in a cash game very likely saves you money and betting will very, very, very rarely win you anything more. If saving money is weak, I wish I was weaker :-)
Good luck at the tables.
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Nick 5:49 pm September 22, 2011
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Hi, sorry I'm late. There was a rabbit involved…
Anyway, the real question i see in this hand is pre-flop. When you had two opponents calling your raise before the flop, what range did you put them on? Maybe there's not enough information to make such a judgement from your perspective, but certainly high cards would be on that list? Possibly a pocket pair? So you have two callers, at least one in better position than you, which means he cold called your raise. I think your hand is in trouble on the flop. K-J-9. Both of your opponents called a pre-flop raise, and the board comes two big cards and one that helps a straight. Logically, this board has to help someone. It's unlikely that either one of them have a K or a J, since you already hold one of each and the board has one of each also. So ask yourself, what cards could they have been holding before the flop that were worth calling a raise, but missed the flop entirely? A small pocket pair perhaps? Small suited connectors? Hmmm…something to consider, I think…
That's why your flop bet was too small, in my opinion. Not because they could have been drawing to something after the flop, but because you should have known that they were, given their calling the pre-flop raise. Unless, that is, you had some kind of pure knowledge that made you think otherwise.
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