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MONEEDUDE 10:52 am August 1, 2011
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You all tell me:::::
From article the number of players does matter
Suppose you’re playing in the dealer position
after everyone folds in a 10-handed hold ’em game, leaving just three players.
You’re in more danger from the blinds waiting to act than if you were playing
in a three-handed game to start with – and you need stronger hands to play
profitably.
Most players figure the situation is exactly the
same when only three players remain, no matter how many players were originally
dealt hands. That assumption is costly.
When many players fold, the cards they threw away
probably were weaker than average, leaving higher-ranking cards more likely in
the hands of your remaining opponents. For that reason, you need to play more
selectively if 10 players were dealt in than if only three were, even though
the decisions seem identical. — MC
I will post part two next it keeps going into lala land when I post all together we will try this instead
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MONEEDUDE 10:55 am August 1, 2011
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This is part two I hope it works
Hold ’em starting-hand
guidelines
(when nobody else has
entered the pot)
Players remaining to act
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Pairs
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No pair
suited
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No pair
mixed suits
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Portion of hands you can play
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9
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A-A, K-K,
Q-Q
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A-K, A-Q
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A-K
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2.9%
(1 in 34.9)
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8 (add…)
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J-J
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A-J
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3.6%
(1 in 27.6)
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7 (add…)
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10-10
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A-10
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A-Q
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5.2%
(1 in 18.9)
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6 (add…)
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9-9
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K-Q
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A-J
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6.9%
(1 in 14.4)
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5 (add…)
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8-8
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K-J, Q-J,
J-10, 10-9
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A-10, K-Q
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10.4%
(1 in 9.61)
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4 (add…)
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7-7
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A-9, A-8,
A-7, A-6,
A-5, A-4,
A-3, A-2
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A-9, K-J
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15.1%
(1 in 6.63)
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3 (add…)
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6-6
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K-10, K-9,
K-8, Q-10, Q-9, J-9
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A-8, A-7, A-6, K-10,
K-9, Q-J,
Q-10
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23.7%
(1 in 4.22)
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2 (add…)
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5-5, 4-4
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K-7, K-6,
K-5, K-4,
K-3, K-2,
Q-8, Q-7,
Q-6, Q-5,
J-8, J-7,
10-8, 10-7,
9-8, 9-7,
8-7
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A-5, A-4, A-3, A-2,
K-8, K-7, K-6, Q-9, Q-8, J-10,
J-9, 10-9
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40.6%
(1 in 2.46)
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A guarantee
I don’t like giving guarantees,
but here’s one. I guarantee that if you follow my chart, you’ll seldom be far
from the right decision against most opponents in typical games.
Notice that you play
more and more hands as the positions get later. Your choices don’t accelerate
much, from position to position, in early seats. That’s because those seats are
the most vulnerable, testifying to the power of position in hold ’em.
With eight players
waiting, you still can only play one out of 28 hands. But if nobody else has
entered the pot and there are just two players waiting (the blinds), now you
can play about two out of five times, just over 40 percent.
So is this contradictory or am I way off?????
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Hi, Moneedude –
There's no contradiction there that I can see. Your part 1 (from a different P1 entry) states that being on the button (as an example) in a game that was three handed to begin with means you can raise with slightly weaker hands than you would if the game began full-handed and everyone folded to you in the dealer position.
The second part doesn't address that fact at all. It gives starting-hand guidance for a full-handed game.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
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Moneedude 8:38 am August 2, 2011
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I have to express confusion on this one and disagreement as well. The two sections are stating the exact same general situation.
10 players were dealt into this hand it states and every one folded to the player on the button.
The general advice from the first information post is,
When many players fold, the cards they threw away
probably were weaker than average, leaving higher-ranking cards more likely in
the hands of your remaining opponents. For that reason, you need to play more selectively if 10 players were dealt in than if only three were, even though the decisions seem identical.
The statement is clear here if more players are dealt in and fold be cautious about what hands you try and become involved with
In the second section the startiing hand chart I am really only looking at the last section of hands. Once again same situation 10 players dealt into the hand and everyone folding to the player on the button. In this instance it appears the chart is stating OPEN up and be more liberal with hands you are willing to get involved with against the players in the blinds.
With great respect and admiration I am a student and you the teacher I do not look to prove right or wrong I only enjoy the search for clarification and understanding.
See next post for continued discussion these post seem limited as to what lengths they will accept long post lock up the page and are not handled well
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Moneedude 8:39 am August 2, 2011
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Continued from post above::::
These are both generalizations and I understand we do not have even
close to enough information here to make a real world example on the
many options available in the real heat of the competition. As a student
I find it difficult to be advised to be both cautious and liberal in
the same situation from 2 different pieces of information. As an
intermediate player I do understand that I need to be aware that my
options open up a great deal in the situation described in these
writtings and I need to be able and willing to take actions that afford
me the best overall return for my investment. This may be monetary and
it may be image or percieved image but I need to use the situation as it
presents itself……. WOW BING BING BING THE LIGHT GOES ON..
I
AM SO SORRY AND SO GLAD I WASTED YOUR TIME IT IS WEIRD BUT WHEN I WROTE
IT ALL OUT AND DEBATED IT I THINK I SAW THE OVERALL LIGHT.
The
two statements may seem contradictory but they are really only advising
to be aware the conditions may exist and I need to use the knowlledge
they may exist to act in a manner that allows me to better define wich
situtation I am ACTUALLY IN AT THE MOMENT. The starting chart is only my
menu of possible support tools to use in making this evaluation for
myself. As you said it does not say raise call reraise it says these are
options for involvement how I get involved and wich options I pick need
to be my playing descions
THANKS AND SORRY BUT THANKS
Sorry I can not say I will not bug you again but that is what I do
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Hi, Moneedude –
Thanks for your contributions to the Poker1 forum. And it's interesting to follow your thought process in real time.
I think the main point is that the chart gives general advice for a full-handed game and the other entry says that when you're in a full handed game and everyone folds to you (for instance, when you're in the dealer position), you need slightly more strength to raise than you would if the game were three-handed to begin with. The chart already takes that into consideration.
This is only a small factor, but it suggests that if the game is three-handed (or short-handed at all), you can play very slightly more aggressively than the chart recommends.
This does NOT mean you shouldn't attack liberally in a full-handed game, when left alone in late position. It just means that you should attack even more liberally in a game dealt short-handed to begin with.
Straight Flushes,
Mike Caro
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Bill 8:55 pm March 21, 2012
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I'm not sure what the original article stated. I don't see a link to the original article.
IMHO There is a difference between first-in on the button in a 10 handed verses a 9 handed game. The effect is very small in terms of which hands to play. The effect is significant in the play of the hand after your initial first-in bet.
IMHO Your chart seems extremely tight.
You need to adjust your starting hands based on a variety of game conditions. For example,
- Game is generally loose or tight?
- Game is generally passive or aggressive?
- Will a raise reduce the number of players or build a pot?
- Position relative to weak players and strong players?
- Position relative to player that often gives tells?
- Is a raise likely to isolate a bad player?
- What percentage of pots go to which street? For example, games where the players will keep you honest at the river. Additionally, verses games that fewer hands going to a showdown.
- Just to mention a few.
Additionally, game conditions will effect whether a hand should raise or limp.
I believe these variations are more significant in limit than no-limit, but still very important in both.
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